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 discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: Pongo 
Date:   08-20-04 20:34

Hola,

Old PKD fan rereading some of my favorites from years ago. Anyone out there interested in discussing The Transmigration of Timothy Archer, or The Penultimate Truth? I just finished TPT recently and am knee deep into TToTA. Any thoughts on these very flawed but incredibly thought provoking novels?

TToTA: Chapter 2 Tim Archer orders a glass of wine with Angel and Jeff, but in the first page of chapter 4 Angel states that he is in AA and sober. Seemed like a blatant seemless mistake to me. Any info out there on PKDs research previous to this novel? Seems he really knows his @!#$ (ie. the book of Q, the zakodites, etc.)


-Guardo

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: dbd 
Date:   08-21-04 04:12

The Sutin bio. discusses some of PKDs talks with Bishop / ex-Bishop Jim Pike, they apparently used to talk a lot about bible stuff and it's origins in the 60s( Pike is of course the real life person that Tim Archer is based on ). Pike was meant to have gone out to the desert doing research on the actual sacrament that was used by Christ and others in that time, some kind of mushroom or manna, the reports I read of what happened aren't all in agreement with each other - one says Pike died with the woman he was there with, another version said she survived, which is odd because there isn't any clear data on how he died then.

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: Fumi 
Date:   08-21-04 07:23

Hi, Pongo!

Thanks for mentioning The Transmigration of Timothy Archer.
I like it very much.


TToTA Chapter 15 : "What if I believe you?" I said. "What then?"
"Then," Bill said, "you are happy because your old friend is not dead."
"And that's the point of this."
He nodded. "Yes."
"It would seem to me," I said carefully, "there there would be a large point involved. This would be a miracle of staggering importance, to the entire world. It is someting that scientists should investigate. It proves there is eternal life, that a next world does exist---everything that Tim and Kirsten believe is, in fact, true. 'Here, Tyrant Death' is true. Don't you agree?"


I think PKD believed in eternal life and a next world totally.
Do you agree?

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: Pongo 
Date:   08-24-04 07:46

I don't know Fumi, its hard to say. I think Phil got so neurotic and paranoid in his last few days, and it really shows in these last few novels. I haven't read the others in the trilogy for this very reason. I really enjoy his early works better. Its harder to accept the plot gaps in the later novels.

With Transmigraion, I have a real problem with how PKD slighted Jeff Archer's suicide. He barely has Angel mention in passing that Jeff had a crush on his Dad's mistress, and came home from England and killed himself. There is no depth to this gigantic turning point in the novel. No final conversations between Jeff and Angel are revealed. It bothers me a lot. As a PKD fan I am used to gaps in storys, but blatant glossing over like this, and the mistakes about TIm Archer drinking and then being in AA are symptoms of Phil's breakdown in his last days. I think they are anyway...

Any input?

Pongo

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: Guardo 
Date:   08-30-04 12:14

Just finished Transmigration. Not sure how I felt about it. Definitely a Dickian ending. Anyone?

Starting "The Godmakers" by Frank Herbert. Anyone read this?

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: duff beer dragon 
Date:   09-11-04 06:40

Well the basic premise of it is that Angel sort of = Tim, the transmigration of the title refers to that, the soul's movement.

Penultimate Truth is also a short story version called In The Mould Of Yancey - weird in a Exegesis-novel-link way since Palmer Eldritches' Chew-Z is from a mould or lichen he brought back from some other galaxy (in the Prox. system I think it says).

I'd say it is well-relevant today because I'd say all our news reporting is done in exactly that way, just like in that book and story. That applies to 'alternative' news too, it's not alternative it is just the other arm of the same problem, like right-wing and left-wing and just two wings on the same body flapping about doing f-all good.

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: optigonchryste 
Date:   09-13-04 20:29

I have also just recently finished re-reading TransTimArch, I wished I knew more about Pike, their isn't too much information out on him, maybe due to the "clergy" My favorite part of the novel (yes i do like this novel a lot) is the narrative, first off a female and secondly first person, rare with Phlkd.
I also like the way the characters fall apart, one by one. maybe this is somehow reflective of phlkd's breakdown, but by breakdown what do you mean? if any one knows much of Pike, I'd definitely fashion the ears for it.

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: Guardo 
Date:   09-14-04 12:43

I liked Transmigration, but as I posted earlier I couldnt get over the big plot holes. Jeffs suicide is the biggest one for me. He moved out and left Angel and was in love with whats her name... It seems to come out of no where. Jeff was such a flat character before his death, and Angel seems to gloss over what should have been a mojor tragedy in her life.

I think PKD got really pretty paranoid and fucked up in his last few days. He had some kind of meltdown that led up to his exegesis, and last few novels. They have a distorted stream of consciousness quality that isnt present in his earlier works. In my opinion the later stuff isnt coherent enough for an easy pleasurable read. He got too lost in gnosticism and all that. I dont want to have to research ancient religions to read a Sci Fi book, even for PKD!

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: nano_control 
Date:   09-14-04 22:27

If I may, Guardo,

I like to think of Phil's works - novels, stories and exigesis - not as stories for the masses, but for healing the Mind. Yeah, I know it seems counter-productive. One may think, "Well, I'm not buying his works if he didn't intend to primarily entertain me."

However, if one has achieved the ability to both entertain and heal the Mind, then why not read in the perpective that these works were as much for him as anyone. It's an intriguing perspective. It's even more amazing to write as such.

I don't speak for Phil's family, but for myself - as I always have

peace

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: Guardo 
Date:   09-20-04 08:41

Wow, Nano thats a hell of an idea. I dont know that I have had much healing going on thanks to PKD though. I have gotten a lot of pleasure from reading his novels, but a lot of frustration as well. They have become kind of a guilty pleasure, for me. I dont like to admit to people that I read trashy Sci Fi novels. I dont even like Sci Fi. About the only other Sci Fi author I read is Frank Herbert. I guess I like to think that PKD is S.F. for intellectuals, but in the back of my mind I dont really think its true. Maybe because most of his novels are so poorly written. I dont know why I am so addicted. Im reading Solar Lottery right now, which is a lump of crap. The plot is barely cohesive. Still I cant put it down. I couldnt quit reading it if I wanted to. Maybe it is healing my mind without me being aware!

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: nano_control 
Date:   09-20-04 22:59

Guardo

The mind I was referring to was not that of the reader, but that of the writer. I'm talking about Phil healing his own mind. I realize that I didn't make this clear in my latest post. I hope this is clearer.

Peace

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: Guardo 
Date:   09-21-04 09:04

Oh, alright. Yeah I guess that @!#$ needed a lot of healing! All the self medicating he was doing sure as hell wasnt helping much. Its a nice thought, but lets face it PKD was making a living. All writers are prostitutes to an extent arent they? Even the great Dick.

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: duff beer dragon 
Date:   09-23-04 12:29

"Jeffs suicide is the biggest one for me. He moved out and left Angel and was in love with whats her name... It seems to come out of no where. Jeff was such a flat character before his death, and Angel seems to gloss over what should have been a mojor tragedy in her life."


uhh, that's exactly what people are like and life is like........do you live in some fabricated Perky Pat Layouts reality where people think things thru first and check and double-check everything, before they make decisions, before they act on impulses, before ?

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: BIPinmate 
Date:   09-25-04 08:19

Perhaps if more people could see a suicide coming there would be less of them. PKD had a couple attempts himself so he probably knew of such things when he wrote.

Guardo, the increasingly crazy Dick hypothesis does not stand up. There are posts from people who knew him (Williams and Powers) on other places on this board. His exegesis writings (excerpts that are available) indicate a rational person trying to understand his experiences and writings from different directions. Even reading the Carrere metabiography you will see that he had stopped his drug use, although the long term effects probably caught up with him.

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: Guardo 
Date:   09-27-04 10:29

Duff- You misunderstood my point completely. I have no problem with that turn in the plot itself, just the way PKD introduced it and explained it. It is a huge turning point in the book, and he spent about a paragraph on it, and never explained it in detail. I mean Angel is the narrator, and her husband killed himself, but she never goes into detail talking about his moving out, or describes their relationship at that point. I thought it was a weakness in the novel. But just so you know, I do live in a Perky Pats Layout reality, so you arent an @!#$ for asking. I actually enjoy posting my opinions, hearing from others, and arguing points with people without insulting them.

BIP- I hear you and agree. Im not sure how to explain how I feel about the exegesis and the later writings. They are coherent but are so complicated and deep that the average person couldnt sit down and read them without researching gnosticism, and Judeo-Christian history and all other kinds of goddam stuff. PKD had a mental break down (or a spiritual experience) that, in my opinion, he never really recovered from. He became obsessed with this stuff, and with his Horselover alterego, and stepped too far away from the body of work that I love. Its hard to compare Scanner Darkly and The Exegesis writings and think that they are even the same writer. Im not making my point here very well... Do you see what I am trying to say?

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: BIPinmate 
Date:   09-27-04 17:55

Guardo: Scanner is my favorite, but I like Valis and Archer very much. Do you mean Valis, Invasion, Archer when you say later writings? I think there is continuity between these and his earlier works although he seems to step away from sci-fi.

Do you have a copy of the Exegesis exerpts? I believe the entries start in about 1974. Please correct me if I am wrong , I do not have a copy with me as I am out of town.

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: Jon 
Date:   09-27-04 22:29



The mushroom theory regarding the Essenes originated with John Allegro. Allegro was one of the first scholars to work on the Dead Sea Scrolls, and I am afraid the development of this mushroom theory meant that he was basically a pariah in the academic community.

Of course, the mushroom theory is not accepted by anyone, and is totally crazy, but it seemed cool in the '60s.

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: Guardo 
Date:   09-28-04 12:05

Scanner is my favorite too. I think what I am trying to say is that PKD just got too obsessed and too caught up in all his research. Im not sure how I feel about Archer. I just cant enjoy those later pieces like I do the stuff that is straight Sci Fi. I can fall into the earlier works, but Valis and Archer take too much effort to read. Maybe I am simple minded. Also, Jon is right, Archer seems pretty dated now. I can see the mushroom thing going over big in Berkley back then.

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: SmileyChewtrain 
Date:   10-02-04 20:55

Guardo -

I do agree with you about how odd it was that Jeff's death in Transmigration seemed glossed over - however, as the book moved on, I began to see it more of an inability of the narrator to deal with the tragedy, rather than the author 'forgetting' or deciding not to focus on it.

I think what made this apparent to me was the fact that Tim also seems to be in denial of Jeff's suicide - on the surface - but his feelings stay hidden, fester, then snowball and create the latent idea (as I think it's called in the book, I can't remember offhand). Since we can probably all agree that to a degree Tim = Angel (as Duff Beer Dragon stated in an earlier post), we can see from the 'mirror of Tim' that Angel is affected in a similar way - she is in a type of apathetic denial of the tragedies around her, yet it causes her to eventually become lost in a 'world of words' - explanations that mean nothing.

Also, from a dramatic narrative standpoint, if there had been a big response and outfall from Jeff's suicide, the snowball effect into the outlandish "Jeff's returned from the grave" phase might not have been as effective.

That's not to say that Angel couldn't have reacted more severely in the world of the book and then just not related it all to the audience- and it's not to say that Dick couldn't have spent just a little more time discussing her feelings about the subject... But after finishing the book I think that this is the kind of novel in which an intricate balance of narrative flow, motivationally and literally, is achieved to create the 'plot', and I think that Dick pulled it off rather well.

Anyways, I also agree that the final 'trilogy' is a lot harder for me to read than the earlier stuff; I usually can read through his pulpier books in one sitting, and these later ones I have to read on and off for a while, but I do enjoy them quite a bit.

G

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 Re: discuss Transmigration or Penultimate anyone?
Author: Guardo 
Date:   10-04-04 12:21

G- I can see your point about Angel refusing to deal with her husbands death, but I still see it as a flaw in the novel. PKD is guilty of this in so many of his books. I just finished "Solar Lottery" and there are several major themes in the novel he glosses over, and gives us no explanation for. Im thinking of the "twitch of the bottle" that the entire political reality of the novel is based on. Dick never explains what this is or how it works. I kept picturing some congressional game of spin the bottle going on in some huge burecratic building somewhere. Also the idea of the flame disk is never well developed. I guess its a planet, but who knows? Its almost like PKD threw it in as an after thought. It has such minimal relation to the rest of the story.
Dick just seems to forget about so many major themes in his novels. I label Jeff Archers death as one of these oversights. I love PKDs work, but cannot ignore the blatant flaws that are so common in his writing. Dick had some of the most creatively awsome ideas in Science Fiction, but the guy really lacked editing skills.
-Guardo

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 Re: define "anyone"
Author: no-one at all 
Date:   10-05-04 13:11

It's probably fairly obvious to anyone who's done the tiniest amount of reading of the subject matter of spirituality, and religion, and their connection to what has come to be called 'drugs' in the last of the latter part of one part of this planet, that yeah they are pretty much connected with one another.


Those Communion wafers take the biscuit tho'.

"This is my body" - is that Albert or Himmler saying that?

what conducts some electricty and is made of paper? yes, that's right

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